UST is oldest, period

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UST’s old campus in Intramuros, Manila. Photo from UST ARCHIVES NOW IT’S settled.

A scholar from Cebu has sided with the University of Santo Tomas (UST) in the lingering dispute with Cebu’s University of San Carlos (USC) over who’s the oldest.

In an article in the January-April 2011 issue of Philippiniana Sacra, the official publication of the Ecclesiastical Faculties of UST, Fr. Aloysius Cartagenas argued that Santo Tomas, founded in 1611, has the rightful claim to the title, not San Carlos, which can only trace its foundation to the year 1867.

San Carlos cannot claim to have descended from the Colegio de San Ildefonso founded by the Jesuits in 1595, despite taking over the latter’s facilities when the Jesuits were expelled by Spanish authorities in 1769, Cartagenas said.

Cartagenas is a professor at the Seminario Mayor de San Carlos of Cebu, part of the same institution as the then College of San Carlos until 1924 when they separated.

Cartagenas echoed the position of the Spanish Dominican historian Fr. Fidel Villarroel, O.P., who maintains San Ildefonso ceased to exist with the expulsion of the Jesuits.

The Cebu theologian said there is “no visible and clear link” between Colegio de San Ildefonso and USC.

On its website usc.edu.ph, San Carlos claims to be the “oldest in the country.”

“It was also here [in Cebu City] that the oldest school in the country emerged—the University of San Carlos,” USC said on its website.

San Ildefonso was a grammar school for boys attached to the Jesuit residence. But what emerged in 1783 or fourteen years after the Jesuit expulsion was a diocesan seminary named Colegio-Seminario de San Carlos, named after St. Charles Borromeo.

Cartagenas said USC only took over the facility of the former Colegio de San Ildefonso.

“The latter (USC) was specifically for the training of diocesan priests, and it simply took over the facility of the former, a Jesuit central house with an attached day school,” Cartagenas said.

Cartagenas said that the Vincentians took over the seminary in 1867 from the Cebu diocese and turned it into a seminario-colegio, or a seminary with a program of secondary education for boys not intended for ecclesiastical service.

“Following Church tradition, the foundation event and date of University of San Carlos should be the decree of Bishop Romualdo Jimeno on 15 May 1867 (turning over the seminary to the Congregation of the Missions) and the first day of classes in the history of what is now USC is 1 July 1867, the day P. Jose Casarramona welcomed the first lay students to attend classes at the Seminario de San Carlos,” Cartagenas said.

Historians point out that unlike UST, whose operations were interrupted only by war and were continuously under the Dominicans, San Carlos changed owners several times.

In 1924, San Carlos split into two under a Vatican decree that seminaries should only be for priestly training. In the 1930s, the San Carlos college moved to a different location, P. Del Rosario Street, while the seminary remained at Martires Street.

The Society of the Divine Word took over the college in 1935. It became a university only in 1948.

The seminary, meanwhile, was returned to diocesan control in 1998.

UST has been a university since 1645.

Historian’s explanation

Villarroel, a former UST archivist, had debunked USC’s claim as early as 1995 in an article in Unitas, the UST scholarly journal. That year, San Carlos celebrated its 400th year.

“Whatever date may finally be fixed and conventionally accepted as [USC’s] foundation date, it cannot be the year 1595,” Villaroel said in his essay published in the September 1995 issue of Unitas.

He said that in that year, the Jesuits established a mission in Cebu consisted of a residence and a church “under the advocation of San Ildefonso.”

“It should be noted that most Jesuit residences in the Philippines, as elsewhere, were called colegios, whether they were educational institutions, houses of formation, centers of apostolate, or seats of government and administration for the Society,” Villarroel said.

Villarroel also noted that when the Society of Jesus was expelled in 1769, the Spanish government confiscated all its institutions, houses, churches, schools and properties, leaving only the Colegio de San Jose of Manila in operation.

“All other Jesuit institutions, without exception, ceased to exist, never to rise again as they were,” Villarroel said. “No institution took over its works and mission, and none claims to be its continuator.”

However, Villarroel said the Colegio de San Ildefonso’s buildings were not demolished and were left to fall to ruin until Most Rev. Mateo Joaquin Rubio de Arevalo, bishop of Cebu, requested the Spanish government to use the structure for the establishment of a diocesan seminary.

“King Charles III granted the request, and steps began to be taken for the foundation for the seminary,” Villaroel said. “[In 1867], the Cebu Seminary of San Carlos became a mixed seminary, a seminary-college, offering courses to the candidates for the priesthood and, besides, some basic  courses in humanities (then called latinidad) to non-boarding Cebuano kids.”

The Colegio de San Carlos of Cebu, according to Villarroel, was “entirely separated from the Seminary” in 1924 due to the Church’s “disapproval of mixed seminaries.”

“The publication of the new Canon Law promulgated by the Sacred Congregation for the Seminaries left the Vicentian Fathers with no option but to comply with the Church’s legislation and separate the college section from the seminary proper in all the conciliar seminaries,” Villarroel said.

“It is [my] contention that the passing from one institution to the other has not been done by homogeneous growth, and so one does not become the other,” Villarroel said. “You do not call a mango tree an orange tree just because the mango tree has grown in the place where formerly an orange tree was planted, grew and died.”

“Hopefully, some future historian of San Carlos University, with the aid of original documentation, may arrive at the clarification of the origins of his institution beyond any reasonable doubt,” Villarroel said.

Yes we are the oldest! May surprise kami sa inyo

Yes we are the oldest! May surprise kami sa inyo
Somebody claims one-sided daw ang UST kasi based on facts (toinks!) hay naku basta USC traces its root from the CSF, Try to visit USC and you will all see, remembeR EMPTY VESSELS MAKE MORE NOISE, 416 years na kami tapos nakaming magcelebrate ng 400 years, (if the world will not end by 2012 hahahaha) may surprise kami sa inyo. hehehe

Talaga?


Talaga? 416 na kayo? parang hindi naman ah... haha


The claim that USC traces its roots from the venerable Colegio de San Ildefonso is the one that is EMPTY since USC people cannot back up their claim with CONCRETE evidences.


puro lang claim ng claim wala naman ebidensya...


Empty vessels does make alot of noise...


Te, basahin mo na nguna yung article bago ka mag post...

A Matter of Proof

The issue on the oldest university in the Philippines made people realized that records and legal documents are both important in tracing the history of a person or a place. In the case of the University of Santo Tomas and the University of San Carlos, arguments are so far fair and unbiased. USC claims to be the oldest because it traces its origin back to a school founded in 1595, while UST contests it is the oldest because it keeps the oldest university charter and it was elevated into a university in 1645. So far UST has the right of to claim its spot as the oldest, unless USC chooses not to concede and shows proof next time around.

Enough of that non sense

There's no issue here, the University of Santo Tomas just presented factual evidence that they are the oldest existing educational institution in the country. They didn't questioned the credibility of the University of San Carlos as a whole. Please don't be so over sensitive.

Like the post of the others, if USC can present factual evidence that links the Colegio de San Ildefonso to present day USC. Even some Cebu based Theologians cannot find the connection between the two. I'm sure there is someone from USC that can explain and clarify this matter and they should explain.

And please, don't compare the academic performance of both schools since that is out of the topic here. history is different from academics.

I also believe on that mango and orange tree analogy.

If USC's claim is true, I should not buy a house that was previously owned by a criminal. People might say that I'm a former criminal.

Another example, if the UST campus was closed and bought by Mapua Institute of Technology, Can Mapua claim that they were established in 1611?

Its the same USC's case.

Proud Pero...

I honestly am proud of being a Thomasian, lalo na't we're celebrating our 400th year this 2011, but the thing is, oldest nga tayo pero not the best in quality. Maganda nga, pero still not the best. Being the oldest sana man lang may mapagmamalaki tayo sa kagalingan pero marami pang nangibabaw sa atin eh. But still proud naman ako at sa 400 years na dumaan eh matibay pa rin ang UST

Not to argue

This is not to contradict your post but ONLY insecure people will compare themselves to others.

UST is a great educational institution, NO ONE can question that. UST is an institution rich in culture and a place wherein the primary commodity is KNOWLEDGE. Whether its good or bad, the history of Philippine Education will not be complete without mentioning UST's big contribution. Indeed, we have UP, AdMU and DLSU is the top three educational institutions in the country but it doesn't mean that UST is far behind. Being the 4th best school is not bad and a great achievement already. Imagine, our country has over 2,000 higher learning schools but most of them are just mere diploma factory schools that offers poor quality of education.

I can compare UST to schools like Columbia University of New York or Stanford University. They are not as good as Harvard University, Massachussetts Institute of Technology or even Yale University but still they are good schools to go to.

Please don't think or say as if UST is the worst school in the country. Because if our topic is the worst school in the country, UST is definitely out of the picture.

And guess what, I'm not even from UST (I'm a graduate of Miriam College). although my husband is a product of that great school.

The problem with some UST students is that they easily get feel inferior to others. Love your school and you should be proud of it.

Congratulations on UST's 400 years of Academic excellence

clarification

The University of Santo Tomas (without is) didn't questioned

Santo Tomas and San Carlos Friendship

Please be reminded that this article was not created to ignite a feud between two of the most respected Universities in the country.

The University of Santo Tomas is ddn't questioned the credibility of the University of San Carlos. All they want is to clarify some historical facts.

Like the post of the other, if you can present factual evidence then present it. I'm sure USC has an Archives office to help.

Again, enough of that non sense debate

not connected

University of San Carlos is NEVER connected to Colegio de San Ildefonso.

Its like saying kung bumili ako ng bahay na ang former owner ay doctor eh, pwede ko ng sabihin na dati akong doctor.

So dapat pala bumili ako ng bahay ang former owner eh Harvard graduate.

Tama yung analogy ng mango tree at orange tree

USC should present evidence

The University of San Carlos should present factual evidence if they will still claim that they are the oldest. So as to not confuse History enthusiasts in the country.

It may not be important to others but among historians, its important.

Don't just say that in your heart, you know the truth. Enough of that too much drama.

Last,

“It is [my] contention that the passing from one institution to the other has not been done by homogeneous growth, and so one does not become the other,” Villarroel said. “You do not call a mango tree an orange tree just because the mango tree has grown in the place where formerly an orange tree was planted, grew and died.”

“Hopefully, some future historian of San Carlos University, with the aid of original documentation, may arrive at the clarification of the origins of his institution beyond any reasonable doubt,” Villarroel said."

This is the best part of the article.

UST is the oldest. Period.

What's important is that THE VATICAN recognizes UST as the oldest university in the Far East. UST is also the only Pontifical University in the Philippines and in Asia, which means that it enjoys the Pope's patronage and protection. Sa mga taga San Carlos, raise your arguments, valid ones please, to the Pope.

SO WHAT IF IT´S THE OLDEST

Ang ATENEO, mas bata pero much more excellent than this school. Being the OLDEST doesnt mean, it´s the best. Stop whining about you living for 400 years. excellence doesnt count. NO.

FEELER MUCH?

Look who's talking. Siguro di ka natanggap sa Ateneo at naghahanap ka lang ng excuse para masiraan yun. At kung taga-Ateneo ka man, siguro sa sobrang hiya sa'yo ng Ateneo, humihiling sila na lamunin ka na ng lupa. UST and USC. Wala naman akong nakikitang Ateneo sa pagitan. Diba? And we never said we were the best, that's because we also respect other schools, older or not. At least wala kaming superiority complex.

Atenista?

Atenista ka po ba? kasi if oo, nakakahiya ka! hindi ganyan ang asta ng nag-aaral sa ateneo. malamang sinusuka ka na ng eskwelahan mo sa mga komento mo. ang pinag-uusapan kasi dito is "sino ang mas matandang institusyon?". Tapos bigla mong isisingit sa usapan ang ateneo, eh wala namang kinalaman ang ateneo sa usapan. This is between UST & USC. Walang ateneo sa equation. Talagang dito lang napatutunayan na marami talagang inggit sa kasaysayan ng uste. kasi maski na di kasali sa usapan eh pilit ipinapasok ang sarili para lang mapansin. hayyy! anyway, happy 150 years nga pala sa ateneo nung 2009! ;)

Bitter much?

Sa Arellano ka nag-aaral no, at dream school mo ang ADMU pero masyado kang jejemon para makapasok doon (kahit wala naman masyadong mapagmamalaki ang school na yun maliban sa pagiging "elite" at magaling sa basketball), at naiinis ka sa UST kasi sila ang palaging umaarangkada sa lahat ng larangan, mapa sining man o pampalakasan.. wag kang bitter!

Typical kayabang ng mga taga

Typical kayabang ng mga taga ateneo... hello.. hindi kayo ang topic dito no.

Tss

I can't take your stupidity. THINK.

uyy walang malaking nakakapuwing...

we in USC never ever think "the oldest" is a big issue kasi we knew it by heart that we are the oldest, I know someday the truth shall prevail, Ganun naman talaga "kailangan sa Manila talaga and una" ang magaling, ang unfair sa inyo one sided kayo, ang mga documents nyo lang at mga evidences na nasa inyo ang pinagbabasehan nyo, may mga evidences din naman kami hindi nyo lang pinapansin kasi takot kayo. Bakit hindi kayo mag-open ng dialogue since kayo yung atat na atat sa issue na ito, ang USC may ibat-ibang panaglan from san ildefonso etc etc, ang ust din naman diba, kayo din naman naputol din naman yung operations nyo, during the wolrd war, the analogy of mango tree is not applicable kasi di naman namatay ang orange tree in fact ginamit ng usc ang facility ng san ildefonso, ibig sabihin inalagaan ang orange tree para hindi tuluyang mamatay.

reklamo?

may reklamo? One-sided kame at facts lang namin yung ginagamit namen? bakit di niyo kausapin yung Santo Papa?

TSSS.

Did your school even come forward to show evidences? If you're so determined, why not show them? Maybe you're the ones who are afraid? And by the way, UST changed its name from Colegio de Nuestra Señora del Santísimo Rosario to University of Santo Tomas because it was elevated to the status of a university. Just thought you should know.

no!

USC of Cebu was the second oldest school since it separated from Colegio-Seminario de San Carlos now Seminaryo Mayor de San Carlos located in Mabolo, Cebu. If you are in doubt about my opinion, you can search the history here in San Carlos Seminary college and we can provide it for you.

The Seminario Mayor opened 14

The Seminario Mayor opened 14 YEARS after the Jesuit expulsion, under DIOCESAN auspices. The diocese merely took over the building. Why don't you show us a document of the Seminario's foundation that shows the year "1595"? There is NONE. What was founded in 1595 was the Jesuit college of San Ildefonso, which was shutdown and NEVER reopened.

the colegio closed down. the

the colegio closed down. the elementary school remained opened. it's there in the article in the sacra. but it does not delineate from the fact that the colegio (the secondary school) closed.

slight correction

kindly fix the misconception that ust closed during world war 2. although the sulucan campus was closed because of the internment camp, the intramuros campus still held classes from 1942 to 1944.

The story merely said

The story merely said operations were "interrupted."

hay naku

UST is owned by the Dominicans since 1611 regardless of its location, anong kinalaman ng 1927 na paglipat? Bawal ba gamitin yung history ng UST sa Intramuros? hanep sa reasoning ah. yung sa San Carlos ang nakakaduda dahil hindi SVD yung original na may ari nun

hindi ako taga san carlos at

hindi ako taga san carlos at hindi din po ako taga ust. about lng po sa topic na oldest School. ang san carlos sa cebu at ust sa manila sa tingin ko po ay parehong old school un nga lng po ang sa cebu naging san carlos sya nung 1867 ( In 1783, the initiative of the Bishop Mateo Joaquin de Arevalo opened the Colegio-Seminario de San Carlos. In 1852, the management of the college was entrusted to the Dominican fathers, replaced in 1867 by the Vincentian Fathers) wikipedia.. pero same place same location and same facility. Ang UST naman sa Sampaloc manila ay itinatag\itinayo noong 1927 lang po.... (At the beginning of the 20th century, with the growing student population, the Dominicans bought land at the Sulucan Hills in Sampaloc, Manila and built its 215,000 square meter campus there in 1927 with the inauguration of its Main Building. Also that year, it began accepting female enrollees. In the last four decades, the university grew into a full-fledged institution of higher learning, conferring degrees in law, medicine and various academic letters.)wikipedia... diba po mas malinaw na iba ang itinatag sa wall ng intramuros at sa sampaloc manila mag kaiba sila sa taon at edad dahil mag kaiba sila ng lokasyon.

Only one UST

With due respect, I shall present facts. The population of the University of Santo Tomas at the start of the 20th century was growing so fast that the Dominican priests bought that land in Sulucan, Sampaloc. Part of the 300th anniverary of UST's foundation in 1911 was the recognition UST's future second campus. The imposing UST Main Building was constructed and eventually, the faculties and colleges moved to Sampaloc in 1927. But while UST Sampaloc was already functioning, the original campus which has been there since the birth of the university in 1611 was also in operation. There were two campuses from 1927 to 1945 - one in Intramuros and one in Sampaloc. Tragically, UST Intramuros was totally destroyed at the end of World War II in 1945. Happily, the UST archives' documents, the library and famous museum were transferred to Sampaloc before Intramuros became a ruin. The statue of its founder Fray Miguel de Benavides, OP was relocated to Sampaloc. The arch of stone, this main portal to students and professors from 1611 to 1945, survived with scratches and was transferred to Sampaloc in the 1950s. This "Arch of the Centuries" is a living and vital proof that the UST of 1611 is the still the UST of today. The same arch is now being used as a welcoming passageway for new Thomasians during the annual Freshmen walk as a symbol of their direct link to their predecessors from 1611. Our very own Pontifical and Royal University of Santo Tomas, the Catholic University of the Philippines, did not change its owners and administrators. Only the name was changed from Colegio de Nuestra Senora del Rosario to Universidad de Santo Tomas because it had to when it was elevated to the rank of a university in 1645 by King Innocent X of Spain.

Proud to be Thomasian at 400!!!

read clearly the truth is

read clearly
the truth is this issue matters because this is our history, and besides if your read closely as to what the historians is pointing out. UST just changed its location to accommodate more students but still, it is the same UST owned and operated by the dominican fathers. It Doesn't mean that once a institution change location the founding date should be changed as well.

To Wiki-kid

unreliable source po ang wikipedia

why always doubt UST?

E ang Ateneo de Manila nga di naman sa Loyola Heights nagsimula e, sa Intramuros din. Nilipat lang din.

hindi magkaiba ng lokasyon

hindi magkaiba ng lokasyon kundi "inilipat ng lokasyon". Ibig sabihin pa rin nun e kung ano yung ust na itinayo sa intramuros, inilipat lang sa sampaloc. hindi nagbago ng ma-yari at hindi nagbago ng pangalan.

sino nga ba ang tama at totoo UST or SCU

kmusta po, hindi ako taga san carlos at hindi din po ako taga ust. about lng po sa topic na oldest School. ang san carlos sa cebu at ust sa manila sa tingin ko po ay parehong old school un nga lng po ang sa cebu naging san carlos sya nung 1867 ( In 1783, the initiative of the Bishop Mateo Joaquin de Arevalo opened the Colegio-Seminario de San Carlos. In 1852, the management of the college was entrusted to the Dominican fathers, replaced in 1867 by the Vincentian Fathers) wikipedia.. pero same place same location and same facility. Ang UST naman sa Sampaloc manila ay itinatag\itinayo noong 1927 lang po.... (At the beginning of the 20th century, with the growing student population, the Dominicans bought land at the Sulucan Hills in Sampaloc, Manila and built its 215,000 square meter campus there in 1927 with the inauguration of its Main Building. Also that year, it began accepting female enrollees. In the last four decades, the university grew into a full-fledged institution of higher learning, conferring degrees in law, medicine and various academic letters.)wikipedia... diba po mas malinaw na iba ang itinatag sa wall ng intramuros at sa sampaloc manila mag kaiba sila sa taon at edad dahil mag kaiba sila ng lokasyon.

Huh?

First of all, hindi binili ng Dominicans ang land sa Sulucan Hills. It was donated by Francisca Bustamante Bayot.

Secondly, ang UST Intramuros at UST Sampaloc ay iisa dahil ang campus sa Sampaloc ay expansion ng campus sa Intramuros. Nang masira ang campus sa Intramuros dahil sa giyera, inilipat lahat ng nandoon papunta sa Sampaloc, kasama na ang mga libro na hanggang ngayon ay existing pa.

Walang itinatag sa Sampaloc, hello? Dahil nakatatag na ang UST before pa.

Walang binago sa pangalan ng Unibersidad. Hindi rin naman napatalsik ang mga Dominicans noon para kailangan pa nilang magtatag muli ng bagong paaralan.

At FYI, sa mensahe ni Pope Benedict XVI noong misa sa UST kamakailan, nirecognize niya ang UST bilang oldest institution in the far east. Kaya wala nang makakokontra.

400 years!

Happy birthday UST!!! :D I'm so proud to be a Thomasian!

sila daw ang oldest:p

“It was also here [in Cebu City] that the oldest school in the country emerged—the University of San Carlos,” USC said on its website.--funny. haha so dapat 416 years na sila ganon? E parang di naman....

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